Staffing Engineers

Hiring U! Podcast Episode #10 – Leonid Igolnik

Autonomy. Mastery. Purpose. These are words and concepts cited by Leonid Igolnik as he shares his thoughts on attracting, building, and nurturing world-class engineering teams as an engineering executive at leading SaaS providers Taleo and SignalFx, who was acquired by Splunk in August 2019 for $1B. 

“I’ve been personally successful at attracting top talent because in order to win, you don’t necessarily need to be better, but you do need to be different.  The good engineers get hundreds of job solicitations every week. What do you or your company offer that makes you different?”

     – Leonid Igolnik

What’s up everyone. Welcome to this edition of hiring university. I’m Jon Beck, your host today. We welcome Leonid Igolnik to the show. Leonid and I have a fairly long history starting when I was his Account manager. He was my client and he used to hold me to the fire for managed hosting services.

And God forbid, any downtime that we had, when Leonid was running things over at Taleo. Today Leonid holds a number of different titles, among other things, product development, executive angel, investor, startup, mentor advisor & technology conference and keynote speaker, as well as podcast guests.

His last real air quotes or full-time job was as executive vice president of engineering at signal FX, who was acquired in August 2019 for $1 billion. Congratulations, Leonid, welcome to hiring university.

Thanks. Jon. I’ve been fortunate enough to be at the right place at the right time, couple of times and, I just had built a lot of talent management at HR software. So, as a head of engineering author led to know a lot about engineering, but to be credible my customers had to know a lot about hiring and talent management.

You’ve built it, you’ve used it. I think it’s fair to say you’re a technologist and engineer at heart, and at the core. So what I’d like to focus on today, is for you to share your insights and perspective and best practices on how to attract, recruit and manage talented employees cause it’s still a competitive market, even though there’s a lot of unemployed folks and good talent in the market, it’s still competitive. How to actually go about hiring virtual and remote employees and then most importantly, how to manage remote teams and within that conversation, want to talk about the people element, best recruiting practices and tools and the process, because those are all as important and equally weighted as anything. So, let’s frame our conversation in that order.

What is the process to creatively recruit and then hire and then finally manage these virtual cloud employees? when we were talking before we started the show, I was under the assumption that you were always a fan and a proponent of remote work. That’s not necessarily the case. Where were you then? And have your opinions changed in the face of COVID-19?

Interesting. Interestingly enough. That’s right. I tend to be the old schooled, controversial opinion holder off collocated teams work well and better. And if I had my choice, every single team of mine would be collocated because there are a lot of interactions that happen when you sit in the, in one room. That just don’t happen when you’re sitting at home, you know, you get to overhear conversations, you have the situational awareness that you generally don’t get when you’re on zoom and people are trying to find out different approaches to compensate for that. But I was always a fan of distributed teams. I’m leveraging hiring bandwidth and going after different regional locations for the team less so, Bullish on distributed  teams individually, especially because most teams, in my experience, don’t have a good process to run well collocated and being distributed requires a completely different level of discipline when it comes to process communication, discipline, It’s a big challenge for first time, earning career folks. And it’s also a big challenge for first time virtual employee managers. So that’s one of the reasons I was not always for it. but there are exceptions to every rule, right? There are certain types of, professionals you can only find where they are and they’re not going to come to you.

So you obviously had to learn how to do that. For example, I’ve done a couple of APM products and in APM, there was this thing called bytecode instrumentation is only 120, a hundred fifty, 50 people in the world know how to do it well. So, you have to learn how to work with them. and now, we will live in exciting new times, which is now you can virtually hire anywhere for a lot of companies and the virtual recruiting world is changing as well.

Well, let’s, let’s hit on virtual cloud recruiting and we’re good. I think we’re going to go in reverse order, which is fine.  It feels like even today, there’s really two ends of the spectrum. There are those people that have and are probably even more so now have been proponents of work from home employees. There are still some that are resistant saying as soon as we can get back to the office, we’re going to get back.

I used to think it was more generationally driven where older guys, like me said, yeah, be in the office cause we want to see your face and that’s the way it’s always been done. But to your point of a nuanced skillset where there may be only a couple hundred people on the planet that can do the work, you don’t have a choice.

And now that offices are closed and there’s a dearth of talent in cloud engineering and some of the next generation development, technologies out there. You have to acquiesce at some point, whether you buy into it or not in order to get the work done.

Cause even for the folks that I would hire remotely travel was always an option, right? Meeting people and building relationships is always important. One of my early bosses used to say, don’t ask anybody for a professional Favor at work before you took him out for lunch. Right. And like figuring out how do you get somebody new on board at who you haven’t met in person.

And unfortunately zoom in spite of its great capabilities for HD and quality of voice still lacks that vivid 3d fidelity. And I, I’m curious to see what’s going to emerge to help us build those relationship. I’m actually helping a couple startups right now, and they’re prototyping different kinds of Slack bots that create random ad hoc connections between two people that normally don’t interact with each other to grab a coffee, virtual coffee or virtual drink.

But it’s hard and you have to be as a leader of their organization, even more disciplined about remembering the fact that you have somebody who may be out of sight out of mind. And that’s what I told recently, a lot of first-time leaders that I’m dealing with, you know, you used to be able to work through the office and realize that somebody is struggling just by watching their body language. How do you figure out somebody who’s struggling by watching the Slack messages? So if they go quiet, so you almost have to like figure out new daily behaviors and new daily routines of checking in with people and gauging who from your team knows how to raise their hand and who doesn’t. And that’s the thing even more important for early, folks that are early in their career because unfortunately, Software engineering is not an art. It’s not a science, it’s a trade. And we as a, as an industry or where’s the human race figured out for, for millennia, how to terrain tradesman’s right. You apprentice.  And this apprenticeship is typically done by observing and watching. And what do you do if you just graduated from school where you’re not have to go into an agile ritual or you need to figure out how to put a PR in place on good hop and they don’t teach that in school yet.

 I couldn’t agree with you more and, I am a proponent of remote work, we’re a cloud talent recruiting firm. And even three years into this venture, we still struggle with a lot of the things that you just talked about and in it, because we do miss the organic interaction that happens with people. We’re now at a point where we would, we would typically get together every three months at the latest, typically every other month or so we’re not going to do that now, and it has spurned a lot of questions in my mind, to your point of how am I going to read people, how they’re doing right. And we have all the. You know, the KPI tools in place. And we know the metrics of when somebody is doing their job or not, but it’s the personal issues or whatever’s affecting them, or again, reading that body language are there best practices out there or technologies? and we mentioned zoom and Slack, which are all great, but other things that you’re seeing out there that can address that?

I think that kind of blew my mind yet. Then interestingly enough, as you said, at the, in my introduction, I am a technologist at heart, although for the last 10 years I’ve been reading more psychology books that I’ve been reading technology books. And there’s an interesting implication for that in recruiting staffing. and as well as maintaining the teams, i.e. kind of thinking about the electrician rate, and I’ve been using tools and techniques that came out of both psychology research, behavioral economics research to motivate and develop, and kind of, as I described to first time, managers, leadership is about creatively staffing a large collection of individuals was gone desires and needs of roaring roughly into the same direction.

You’ll never get them on the same vector. You’ll be lucky if like the vector is mostly pointing into the right direction. So this is why I’m going right now. I am scouring the literature to see what other techno, what other techniques I can pick up out of the psychology research or behavioral economics research, to get better understanding of how to behave in this situation.

Unfortunately, Other than improved tooling. And we’re so much luckier right now, in terms of the timing, when this crisis happened, giving the kind of collaboration tools we have compared to let’s say, if this happened in the recession of 2008, right. Zoom was reliable. Everybody has decent connection. you know, the exciting thing of I don’t have to invite you into my living room anymore if I don’t want to it without having a green screen, just because of the simplicity of a virtual green screen, that like tools like zoom have, which is a big psychological factor, because I’ve noticed that some virtual employees who, did not have the right work environment, who technically now maybe working out of the bedroom, at least comfortable turning the video on so you see the body language and the interaction because of the virtual, background. Capability. I haven’t found anything that blew me away yet. So for now I have to go back to basics. And for me, the basics come out of several, several sources. One of my favorite sources is Daniel Pink’s drive. That talks about the three key things you need to do to create, to motivate the knowledge worker.

And I actually use them in both the recruiting staffing process, which includes autonomy, mastery and purpose. Right? So if you think about creating the environment of autonomy and when it comes to remote work is equipping. The folks with the right tools, the right repeatability, the right documentation on internal processes.

So they’d not constantly so that they don’t constantly feel frustrated about not being able to do their day job, especially if they just joined their organization. So I think onboarding, the quality of onboarding has to increase substantially to support that level of autonomy. Yeah. I think mastery, historically have been useful for me in a cloud marketing and creative recruiting firm.

And we can talk about, as we get to creative staffing how I use that aspect to, to convince the candidate, to join a booth for a particular role. But I think thinking about mastery and continuing to invest in it. in the remote work will require different types of tools. you know, I speak at a lot of technical conferences, as you mentioned, and even the conferences have now changed. You know, I, most of my keynotes are done from my office. and how do we make the, information and what format of delivery of the content would you use online versus in person? So it’s more engaging. So I’m, I’ve done a couple of conferences where we moved on way past kind of simply talking at people on zoom, for example, the recorded a talk or keynote has done.

And then the actual interactive portrait was the speakers is Q and A for half an hour while the, maybe the recording of the talk is playing in the background. Right? So there are some interesting, innovative formats, and then you have purpose, right? And the purpose motive is very difficult. It’s even more difficult to create in a distributed environment. It’s how do you get people rowing in the same direction towards the same goals? I just saw a start up that I am advising, for example, a launch, many purpose exercises, like a two-week challenge, pick a habit. Cause again, psychology that tells us if you want to get regular with a habit You have to do it 14 times supposably. So one of the startups I’m advising just started a 14 day habit and it can be any habit you want. It could be taking a walk, it could be running or could be playing video games.  And how do you. Self-motivate and equip your teams with techniques to get those habits, that they need to acquire that may be difficult for them.

I want to comment on the virtual trade shows . I think a lot of times it’s not better or worse. It’s different, everything. They were adapting to.  I’ve been on some webinars now where they were scheduled previously to be in person events. I know if an in-person event, the keynote would have given their address, walk up the stage, probably hopped in an Uber or Lyft. And I wouldn’t be, they would know no chance for me to connect with them versus the virtual.

They they actually open up for Q and a, and there’s a chance for some dialogue. so again, it’s, it’s different. Let me, let me hit on different with the actual virtual employee interview process. You build great creative staffing at signal FX and Taleo and other stops on the way that tube is different. And some people are much better in person than they are on the phone or video.

Right. We’ve all experienced that. you can’t do a whiteboard session panel interviews go away. Now people are suffering from video  fatigue, or they’re concerned about their environment. How do you adapt to that? through that process to find people to, to cut through all the differences, but also to make sure that they’re capable of work from home.

As a Cloud talent recruiting firm we know it takes a certain personality and maturity to do that.

You know, it it’s interesting. It was video interviews because folks just started, I’ve always done a video interview in recruiting staffing as at least a form of free screen and prescreen. And I’m a huge fan just because I had to hang out around a lot of my fellow customers of doing a lot of, early pre-screens over voice.

It takes a lot of, kind of. Pre-judgment out of the conversation when you just focus on the voice rather than the appearance, the background, or even some basic things like an eye contact. So right now, and for most folks, I have a choice. I can look at you, Jon, and your video back. So, as a human I’m used to interacting with a face, or I can help you and look at the camera.

So, you can see me looking at you. And just even that skill of knowing where to look when you look when you on video.

Yes.

Is this new difficult thing. And I don’t know if you’ve seen there some interesting products that I’ve seen come out that I think in video, somebody released a product that, takes, finds, the eyes on, on the, on the picture and automatically regazes you towards the video camera.

So it looks to the person you’re talking to that you actually looking at them, not at their picture on the screen, which is fair. Fairly below you. Right? So, so remembering that we’re still learning how to behave on videos. I think one tip for both virtual employees being interviewed and interviewing and determining where you look.

Number two, some fundamentals and I am a photographer. I’d been doing photography, since I was eight. So some basic lighting condition. When you show up for the interview, if you want your party to see you, well, don’t put a window behind you. So, you like a nice silhouette as if you are in a 60-Minutes interview, you know, masked was a distorted voice invest, in a good, decent quality microphone or headset, like even.

Airports prof, just something that is better than a built-in mic into your microphone, because against research demonstrate that for humans to be engaged speech is, much more important than video you’re can have pretty crappy video and you still will follow the, the other party. But if you have crappy voice, like forget about it.

Right. So focusing on that and then for the interviewers, and it just blows my mind that creative staffing agencies still do that. This virtual onsite concept that a lot of company basically used to do an onsite five, six hours on the role people rotating in and out, and they just taken that format and transplanted it as is.

And you, you mentioned this, that the video fitigue, right? And I’m shamelessly stealing this, the term from you. It is much harder to being engaged was a flat screen over six year, six hours of conversations. So my other advice is break it up and probably no more than two, two hours in a row.

Yes.

Like there’s no reason right now to do that and quite frankly, I would argue for people’s scheduling interviews. You’re the sudden got a flexibility. And instead of trying to get everybody in the same room at the same time, Yeah, now have greater flexibility from a candidate and greatly flexibility from an interview, but I know I was blown away when I didn’t see companies embrace it.

Yeah.  I’m with you. The video fatigue for all of us is real, certainly during the interview process for cloud employees, which is stressful enough as it is. I have seen some early rumblings around virtual reality, being used for interviews and whatnot, just to get people to break up that monotony and to have more of the 3d type effect it will be interesting to see where that goes.

Let me take a step even further back in the chain. And I made some earlier comments that there are some in the recruiting staffing world that believe there’s just so much talent in the market because of the layoffs. It’s that much easier to find really good software engineers. I personally disagree with that. I think, I think, yes, there’s more talent, but it is as fiercely competitive as ever VC activity has slowed a little, but still very active. If you’re, if you read the dailies there’s deals getting done every day, how do you, and you consult a lot of startups. How do you attract and compete and differentiate yourself knowing that that’s the case and the big guys are, are taking advantage of this too.

Right? All the Fang stocks are gobbling up talent right away. How does a startup compete? That’s right.

I absolutely agree with you in spite of talent being available, what I’ve learned over the years, as you know, if there was a 2 million shortage of software engineers worldwide. Well, maybe, you know, let’s, let’s go to the extreme and say, now there’s a half a million-person shortage in our industry, still half a million shortage in our industry. So, and I agree with you. I think the competition is different. As you said, in, in this type of economy, the candidate pool becomes more risk averse and they are possibly more like the larger companies. Most stable companies may be more appealing to them.

So, if you were a startup, I think you have to compete and maybe that’s what forces you to go remote. For example, if signal effects, even in a thriving economy where people will open, do go work at the startup, we ended up opening a site elsewhere. And for me that appeal is threefold or fourfold. I think it’s the new concept that I’ll introduce. I call it arbitrage. You have to create an arbitrage on something. For example, when signal effects went to open an office in Krakoff, we were the coolest company in town. We were able to bring the kind of. engineering culture and work that not a lot of other companies in town had and we were milking that arbitrage of being a Silicon Valley company behaving like Silicon Valley.

And I think if you’re looking at talent pools outside of Silicon Valley, and I’ve lived in five different countries, I worked professionally in three Israel, Canada, and here in California, and US you have an opportunity to bring slightly different technology, quality and cultural norms to regions where you can benefit from that arbitrage.

Right. it, it will only appeal to a certain type of candidate, but you will find those types of candidates. For example, I see companies going to Toronto, both four time zone variation as well as immigration law flexibility. So, you can have choices between Canada and US, but Toronto is full of banks and insurance companies and maybe a few cool product development companies.

There’s like a bit of Google, tons of Shopify, a bit of a class. And so going to places where you may be a cool employer for people that already live there and don’t want to move specifically, I would be targeting places like Austin, Pittsburgh, anything around good technology university, right. Is always helpful.

So that’s one. So whatever arbitrage you can find  and that arbitrage, by the way, it depends on the product you’re selling. Cause to me, recruiting and Jon, you came on or you come out of sales, you know, that recruiting is selling. Different product. So arbitrage is number one. Number two, I’ll go back to the same principles I mentioned before, which is autonomy, mastery and purpose, understanding candidates desires and understanding the career aspiration, five years from now, it has been the biggest impact for my cloud talent recruiting firm on being able to convince somebody to join a given company, because that allows us to tell a story when we come with an offer, if we get to that stage about.

Why does this job versus maybe other jobs you have on the market help you get to your goal closer. So if I understand the goals, I can at least articulate that as a creative staffing agency hiring manager. And I tend to articulate that around autonomy, mastery and purpose. Right situation, depending on the candidate, what are they going to learn from joining us?

What are they bringing to the table? Why it’s an interesting goal that they can align up with, especially remote. It’s much harder to stay connected to the company. And again, talk about autonomy and tools that we have. Like I’m hugely huge fan of efficient onboarding on my teams, an engineer has to commit something that goes to production.

I mostly do SAS stuff. So production is kind of very close to the engineering team by day five on the job. It’s the small thing that matters, but it increases your level of engagement. And by the way, drives referrals because I know more companies that cannot onboard you this efficiently than can.

Yeah, Don’t get me started

getting that endorphin shot right of day one, HR day two my workstation day three, learn about architecture day four or five six. It doesn’t matter how trivial bug. You fixed, right. Even as a senior engineer and senior guys realize like, yeah, just change the label. That’s right. It’s that little, like, I’ve done something in my first week, which is pretty cool.

That tends to also be differentiator. And you can talk about that, like that’s arbitrage. And that’s one of the reasons I mentioned that I think quality of onboarding and this remote work has to increase even more than what, what it was before.

That’s that’s an interesting set of answers.  you may or may not realize this, but as a technologist, the three things that you just recited have nothing really to do with technology at all more to do with psychology than anything.

Oh, I absolutely realize that. and that’s why, at some point, when I, when I professionally moved from architecting systems to architecting teams, I realized that the operating system for creatively staffing teams has nothing to do with technology. It has to do everything was psychology.

And I, and I’ll go on my five second rant here.

This is our frustration in our industry as a cloud talent recruiting firm where so many companies believe. I have the job description with my list of requirements. Go find me the body. I don’t have time to talk to you about how my company is different, how we’re doing things with onboarding, how I’m going to create, you know, positive, referrals, all those things get missed.

They really believe that here’s the requirements go find the body, which is the failure of this industry. You know, it’s not just about pattern matching a bunch of keywords. It’s about understanding people in motivation and matching those between buyer and seller. So anyways, I

digress

Jon and I have to agree with you and that’s one of the reasons I know I’ve been personally successful at attracting top talent is, as you probably know, from your background in sales, in order to win, you don’t have you, you don’t need to be better. You need to be different. Right? You have to stand out from bazillion inbounds, every skilled engineer, it gets on their LinkedIn. And in order to stand out, you have to understand psychology more so than technology. Now you can leverage technology and differentiation in your company on your product when it comes to pitching mastery or purpose. For example, when a signal effects entered Poland, I was a company that was doing a trillion messages of a Kafka bus in a day, anywhere from 5 million to 25 million messages a second, that’s something I can. Peak in interest was, I don’t know if I can.

Absolutely.

I cannot close an engineer. Was that right? So, understanding what, what, what, what arbitrage or what sexy quality is the company can bring to the table?

Because, you know, I spent most of my professional career in enterprise software and enterprise software as a sexy ass plumbing, as well as lucrative as plumbing. I know how much I paid my plumber last time. So, it makes it difficult to attract. The folks that you work with that, get it. I think that we’ll be able to get disproportionate about a quality of talent because they will a little different.

Let me shift gears here for a second. And let’s talk a little bit about Leonid you look at a lot of deals. He followed technology.  What’s around the corner that excites you the most.

I’ve been fortunate enough to be at the right place at the right time.

23 years ago, when, SAS as a, as a concept for delivering software got started before even SaaS was nailed sauce. And. and it was interesting to see the evolution of the SaaS industry. So John, when you and I met back in 07-08, people was still telling me was like, yeah, this whole SAS thing is a fad.

We will never put our data in your cloud. I think we finally moved on past that. I think for me, the next interesting evolutionary trends in our, in the, in an enterprise software segment of the market have to do with two different, interesting trends. Number one emergence of the cloud as the fact of the standard way of delivering technology solutions.

 Like cloud, just a much more efficient compute market. Somebody like zoom had to grow 10, 20 times overnight was able to get that compute from probably other, other customers of their cloud vendors that had to shed that compute because their business was a disproportionate effect that imagine if that computer was locked up in physical data centers inaccessible.

So it’s just a much more efficient marketplace. Yes, number two. What I like about what we’re seeing in the industry through emergence of major cloud providers, as well as emergence of standardization of infrastructure management, APIs, like Kubernetes, we see in standardization of delivery models and new SAS delivery models, emerging, actually one of the companies had just invested money and then became an advisor company called Spitscale, which throw the blog on SaaS 2.0.

Where, if you look, if you’re familiar with, for example, how Databricks delivers their software, they have control plane running in their cloud and they will use the standard APIs that all cloud providers now give was standardization of Kubernetes to run the data plane, the bulk of the compute in the customer’s VPC, it’s better for privacy.

It’s better for data residency. We’re not moving data back and forth needlessly between the clouds and quite frankly, it’s more economic or exactly. And quite frankly, it’s much more economically efficient because now all of a sudden the SaaS provider is no longer in the business of reselling compute.

From Amazon. Right? So that’s one trend that I think is going to be interesting and we’ll see a new type of obligations emerge and possibly also unlocked domains that were remained, locked to SAS vendors because of data privacy. The second big trend that I am, excited about is application of, machine learning techniques, to human productivity.

I took a sabbatical before my signal effects job and I decided to learn a bit more ML and I trained a neural net to play snake five different ways. Just again, to get the feel for that, watching I’m advising couple companies that are playing in natural language processing space, watching the speed with which.

That space moved from LSTs to transformers to Google recently released a new natural language processing model called Bert. It’s pretty exciting. And I think the next major inflection point and productivity of humans is not necessarily replacing humans. I think it’s augmenting humans. Through a machine learning, enabled the applications.

And I think I’ve been greatly disappointed by AR / VR. I thought that would be the next revolution and it’s still fizzled out. We’ll see if VR, gets a boost from a kind of the current situation, but I’m bullish on SAS 2.0 and ML.

Well, if you’re a young software engineer just entering the market, right? Put yourself in the way back machine. What is, what is a young Leonid share with, or what does a Leonid today share with a young Leonid or, an entry level, employee coming into the marketplace based on what you know today, three things don’t forget about your soft skills.

Software is built by teams of humans, not by individuals, especially software of any kind of meaning. And you have to learn how to collaborate with those humans, especially in this day and age of remote work, right. That will stretch you even more. Believe it or not. Jon, I am an introvert and a trained extrovert.

So, you know, early in pandemic me, my glass of Cognac and my Netflix shows were quite okay for a few weeks until, you know, I needed some human interaction. Second is, get, remember that software engineering is not just science. It’s a trade and learn the tools of the trades. So GitHub, all the common tool chains learn more about the cloud.

The good news is things are so accessible right now in terms of online tutorials, online content that you should be able to learn. And, and that goes to learn how to learn. I’ve been in this industry for 23 years and the way we build software today is not the way we build software 10 years ago. And then it changed again it will keep changing. And the last one, I think, because I’m so excited about machine learning, don’t look like your mass studies and in school, I think, you know, I’ve studied calculus and differential equations and have not used any of those concepts, but they all of a sudden needed to, to be used as I was a real learning or reacquainting myself with modern machine learning techniques, cause most of those are based on, on math, or as my format. Chief scientists from signal effects will say basic math. and even if you’re not going to become a statistician or mathematician, understanding some of those basic techniques and concept, I think will allow you to participate in more exciting projects, in the next five years.

So you’re still a believer of the traditional educational system going and getting your undergraduate degree as opposed to just venturing out into the workforce, because there are, there’s a big movement now to say, Waste of money go and, you know, taken on an apprenticeship, learn how to develop. You don’t necessarily agree with that.

Or do you?

I think both have a place in the industry. I think it will lead to a different career path. I been, I have benefited from fairly deep education, on fundamentals at a place like Technion in Israel where I can still talk to you how things work at the Silicon level. at the inside the processor and how a line of Java code or high-level code translates to that.

And there are times and products and, and opportunities that require that level of understanding. there are plenty of other jobs that will make you successful that don’t require that level of understanding. I think the key thing I got out of school is not the things they taught me is the ability to learn.

And I think whether you go through a boot camp or whether you go through university degree, the key things to learn is how to learn because this industry changes every few years, new tools, languages, frameworks, techniques, emerge, and you have to keep up or you’re simply going to be left behind.

 I agree with that and I tell the kids that I am involved with. You go to college. More so than anything to learn how to learn. So, I think that’s really, really good wisdom, by the way, we will have to find another time to talk about being a trained extrovert and how you accomplish that. I don’t think we have enough time today, but that’s a fascinating concept it’s probably back to the 14, 14 days of habits or longer. but yeah, but you would never know it.

Leonid listen really, really good stuff. Appreciate you spending time with us. before we go, tell our listeners where they can connect with you online. If they’re looking to contact, you for investment or advisement or otherwise.

So you can find me in two fundamental places. I am on Twitter @ligolnik L I G O L N I K. Or you can just follow me on LinkedIn. every once in a while, I’ll share a thought or an article that I find interesting there, you don’t have to be connected to me to still benefit from some of the thoughts I put online.

I tend to be I’m from the class of people that curate their LinkedIn framework. So, if you send me a simple connection requests, Don’t expect a, an immediate return, but if you want to get my opinion on something, you want to ask me a question, LinkedIn or Twitter are the best places.

Terrific. Again, Leonid, thanks for stopping by continue to be safe and, for our listeners until next time, keep grinding and keep the faith.